Following the Pirates "Out of Ur"

Because of the response that Christianity Today received on their blog, Out of Ur, they've asked me to do a follow-up to the pirate post. Here are their questions and my responses. Hopefully this keeps the conversation going!

CT: Some people are taking issue with the idea that a pastor’s sheep can be stolen because, they say, the sheep really belong to Christ. Where does the church member’s loyalty reside—with Christ, the church, the pastor, or all three?

I agree that the church members, attendees don’t belong to the pastor. They are God’s people, called by him to serve him above all. We are called to shepherd them, not own them.

The issue of pirating, though, isn’t about the members’ loyalty. It’s not about the attendees finding another church. It’s not about the visitors going somewhere else.

We tell people all the time that if Fellowship Church isn’t for them to leave. And we lovingly and directly point them to any one of the phenomenal churches in our area.

The issue with pirating is all about what happens in the church leadership—specifically the staff.

I’ve discovered there are several types of people around you: those who are with you, those who are for you and those who use you. Pirates are the ones you thought were with you, but end up using you for their own agenda.

It’s the people you, as a leader, pour your heart into. It’s the people you laugh with, cry with and share your life with. The ones you mold and shape.

Pirating rears its ugly head when those leaders that you cultivate  maliciously and intently work behind your back and the church’s back to gather their own “kingdom” and head out the door. The real issue is betrayal.

I have no problem with leaders being cultivated in the church and then being sent out to start new churches. But the key there is that they are sent. When someone on your staff usurps the authority of the church, starts a rogue movement and does their own thing, then you are dealing with a pirate.

CT: Employees leaving a corporation to begin their own business often sign a non-competition clause. What do you think is an appropriate geographic distance for a church planter to operate who was nurtured, given their start, at Fellowship Church?

This is an interesting question, because it brings up a core issue that many people seem to be missing in this whole thing. Ethics.

In the corporate world, if you work for someone and at the same time work to steal their clients, that’s illegal. You are getting paid by that person to work for them; yet, at the same time you are taking the rug from underneath their feet. You will go to jail for that. And that’s why there are non-competition clauses.

I’m not saying that the church should be run like a business. I’m not saying that we should model everything we do after the corporate world. I don’t think we need to sign non-competition clauses. I’m simply pointing out that the ethics of this situation are all out of whack.

In the church, our ethics should be so far above the corporate world that competition isn’t even an issue (‘above reproach’ sound familiar?).

To use the old adage, there are plenty of fish in the sea. It’s not about placing some building in a certain position on a map. It’s about ethics and how you go about fulfilling your call.

CT: Is competition always bad? Lyle Schaller has a book titled “From Cooperation from Competition” in which he calls for more churches to compete in the same area for the same people. This, he says, will cause all the churches to improve their ministries. (It’s free-market capitalism meets seeker-driven church.) Should we be upset by the presence of a competitive church down the street, or should we celebrate and welcome it?

Simply put, no, competition isn’t bad. I believe it helps us become better at what we do. It’s the thing that drives us. Everything we do at Fellowship is about competition. We’re in competition against the evil forces in the world to reach lives. That’s the same battle we all face. But pirating has nothing to do with competition.

We celebrate every church that is preaching and teaching God’s Word and going after those far from God. We’re all called to depopulate hell by making it hard for people to go there.

But so many of these comments are about sheep swapping; they are so concerned about the competition down the street that they miss the point of reaching the lost. I’m not worried about competition. Again, there are plenty of people for every church.

We are here to reach the lost. And I think every church leader would agree with that. But when someone in your staff becomes a pirate, that mission is jeopardized. The focus gets taken away from reaching out to the world for Christ. And instead, we have to deal with issues that Christ never wanted us to face when he prayed in John 17, “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.”

It ultimately comes down to one quesiton: who are you reaching? Because pirates are all about reaching into the church first for their own agenda rather than reaching out to the world to save lives and fulfill Christ's agenda.

Comments

[Loren]

Thanks Ed for your post and video. I think this sort of thing is championed far too often, and your voice needed to be heard. I live in an area where a church broke off of a larger church to follow a Charasmatic figure from the church. That new split took many vibrent members from the church, and now has planted itself next to the church I serve at, and it syphening off members from the ministry I serve in as well. What are practical things can do to keep members when other Churches are in the buisness of drawing them away? My thought at this point is to focus on the lost and let God sort it all out, but I am interested to see what others think.

[Scott]

I recently saw your heart felt message on church pirates. I personally have been called to pastor two dying churches that the end result was a parting of ways because of open sin and compromise.
The last call moved my family from our home to Illinois and after a year and a half long frustrating ministry we knew God wanted us to leave, but unlike before he did not open any other doors.
I am not a pirate (I think) but I was aproached by a large group of people who left the church and asked us if we would stay here and plant.
Can there be a difference betweena pirate who takes members, and a servant of God who care about people who are not being reached and has to legitametly leave a church that is only God's by the name on the door?

We took a long time to make the decision to not go back home and wait for God to move again, and we are seeing fruit in new baptisms and growing believers who are now reaching out without fear.....I don't know what else to do except do what God has put before me but I constantly go back to what if I had better leadership skills could I have helped heal it....I know the problem was there long..long before me...but still...

[Greg Van Dussen]

Thanks, Ed, for your courage and clarity. You've identified an insidious, destructive pattern. It's misleading and/or disingenuous for anyone to attribute piracy (especially their own) to Christian motives or God's will. You've clearly distinguished piracy from honest, missional church planting. Piracy damages churches and communities, divides families and friends, and produces narcissistic pseudochurches.

[Allan W.]

I wonder if part of the problem is that leaderships hold a bit too tightly to the reins of power and vision in churches.

Scott (second post above), you scare me a little. Your staff culture sounds rather... oppressive. I know that's not the whole story, but we should recognize gifting, nurture it, and give young leaders a channel for using it. Otherwise, they may make plans in secret that hurt the church, fearing they won't ever get to use that gift.

Wise leadership will also recognize when someone isn't ready or gifted for it, and should boldly and lovingly say so - and point them where they should focus. Leadership should also cultivate an environment where people are encouraged to get mentoring and blessing to branch out, if that is their call and gift.

All the competitiveness I see above... is one reason I don't miss doing ministry in the South. In the NW we just don't have such close proximity and competition. It's a wide open field, and the needs are great.

[Allan W.]

This is not a phenomenon unique to American churches.

My brother-in-law, a missionary in Uganda, just discovered that a man he'd discipled for years has been soliciting donations from his donors, and is now starting his own church and spreading lies about him with supporting stateside churches. Ed nailed it: it's all about betrayal, for personal gain. The heartbreak and despair have been nearly overwhelming.

What's so frustrating is that he was being trained with evangelism in mind! Clearly, Satan had other plans for him.

I'm part of a church plant in (supposedly unchurched) Portland, Oregon. We asked our elders - and others from several congregations - to bless us in a needy neighborhood. Relations have been good, and many come and volunteer and support us from area churches.

The key was we were blessed by our own leadership, and we asked other churches in the area for their blessing. Respect!

[Katherine]

It is sad that a pastor that has such a vision and who invites all other churches through the doors of Fellowship to the C3 conference to TEACH THEM how to grow their church like Fellowship does - is being criticized. He is not saying that he doesn't want other churches to grow - he wants to TEACH THEM how to grow and learn about how to touch more lives through the church. Ed - like all people - just wants people around them that he can trust and depend on. I agree with Kara about the enemy isn't another church - it is the devil and maybe we should all remember that. To have a functioning group - be it a church or a corporation - you have to be able to depend on the people that surround you.

[Scott]

It is no accident that the pilot of the plane doesn't call back to the passenger area and ask how to fly the plane. It is amazing how misled sheep are. To take resources, people and momentum from another church in the name of Jesus is wrong, unethical, and is not Kingdom minded. As a Senior Pastor I am territorial, strategic, and fully expect loyalty from those who are under my leadership. Miss that and you get fired. First hint you are undermining the vision, direction, purpose of this body and you are sent on your way. Every staff member signs a non-compete contract, you don’t want to do that you don’t work here. A shepherd is responsible for caring for the sheep that means getting rid of wolves. The result for us is dozens saved each weekend and we are the largest fastest growing church in our region. Vision can only be accomplished by focused effort. When junior leaders fight, and frustrate the direction of the visionary leader it is not Kingdom minded, nor is it God authored. Ed, is able to lead and accomplish amazing goals and work because he understands the value of focused direction and real leadership.

[Cameron Smith]

I admire your commitment to standing firm on this issue and not back pedaling. What you're saying is perfectly clear - and it's saddening that people can't see it.

[John Pitts]

An awesome blog. This just happened in our city. A pastor on staff left a large church after serving there for a decade. He played the "God" and "Great Commission" card. He even recruited people who were visiting the church where he was on staff to help him 'plant' his church and then took people from his Sunday school class and his wife's ministry with him. It was unethical and a betrayal of the trust given him by the church he pirated from. His 'core' group for his 'plant' is made up 99% of people from the church he pirated. No class.

[Chris Myers]

Ed- Thanks for taking a stand, and putting yourself out there. My family prays for you and your family and I know it can't always be easy to take on the big issues and then taking the flak. Thank you for being that person. Who tells us what we need to hear ant what we want to hear. God is interested in every decision we make, even if we are not.

[Kara Huffman]

Ed - I have been a member of Fellowship Church since the mid/late 90's and being part of a big church, and all that it implies, has never been something that was uncomfortable for me. I do however, occasionally miss the more intimate and direct contact with your senior pastor that you find in a smaller church. For that reason, I was excited to find that you were starting a blog and sort of "letting us in” a little. I have been reading along, occasionally amused, often informed, and with the “pirates” post, glad to see that you were giving us the full “Clint Eastwood” (the good, the bad, and the ugly) and not just appearing to be this perfect person with the perfect church. After reading the CT article, comments and all the negative backlash, the first thing that came to my mind was Craig Groeschel and his recent “One Prayer” message that was shown at Fellowship. One of his main points was that we as Christians all need to have ONE ENEMY – not the church down the street, not the other denomination that does thing a little different, not the big church pastor, not the small church pastor, not the church planter, etc. No the enemy is Satan, and oh how he must be sitting down there chuckling all over himself at us up here bickering amongst ourselves. I was glad to see the clarification post as it helped even me to understand more where you were coming from and I just felt led to make my first “comment” as a way to encourage you to continue the blog (not that you need little ol’ me to tell you that). I just wanted to silence Satan’s smirk, however brief a moment it may be, and say thank you for your Christian candor.

[Amy Waddell]

Hey Ed...you're definitely taking some heat for this one, but the topic definitely needed to be addressed. My husband and I admire you greatly for being bold...and we all know that satan wants to attack those who are fierce for the Lord, not those who sit in the back row. Your message was clear, from the very beginning, and it's evident that this topic needed to be discussed...hence the response.

Through my 4 years at FC, nothing greater has been known than your love for our church and how we can incorporate new ways to bringing in the lost...and keeping them there and involved. This church is a clear depiction of the love of Christ, and it makes the evil one cringe. He wants so badly to weasel his way into something so magnificent, forgetting that where 2 or more are gathered, he is not welcome. Those who critize FC need to reevaluate what we're here for in the first place...to be ONE church, ONE body, that ALL come together to bring home the lost!

You are a great leader. Annointed by God and blessed because of your faithfulness! Keep up the good work and thank you for being bold in your faith...you and your family are such an inspiration!

[Mark Justin Josephs]

Ethics are the key too a sucessful Law practice. In the Church we should be "way above" any ehtical stadard set by a law practice/or business. This can be required through contract for staff, and is highly recommended because it sets a proceedure in place to avoid pirating.

[Jonathan Jones]

Well put. I think you hit a home run with this in using the old adage "there's plenty of fish in the sea". I live in the Atlanta metroplex, one of the most churched areas in the United States. There old saying "a church on every corner" is not an understatement here; yet, I guarantee that if every person in the metroplex decided to go to church tomorrow, we'd all be turning people away, even with multiple services. When I consider that fact alone it makes me sad to see church pirates.

[Sam Andress]

Why does the author only approve uncritical comments?

[James McLean]

i still think there are much more important issues that the church must face. lets get to the mission of Jesus and let God deal with these so called "Pirates".

[Lora]

Let us all get back to whats important...sharing Jesus...not fighting or stealing from each other...turn the other cheek. Love your neighbor!

[Brandon Thomas]

As a church planter who pastors a new church within driving distance of Fellowship Church, I can 110% affirm that Ed has a heart for the CHURCH (the BIG "C"). There has been no lead pastor as encouraging and empowering as Ed Young. My entire staff would tell you that there's no greater friend to us than Fellowship.

I do not feel like we are in competition with Fellowship, but rather that Fellowship's friendship gives us a COMPETITIVE EDGE in our pursuit of bringing people to Jesus!

IRON SHARPENING IRON!

[Mike Hall]

Ed,
Thanks for the original post and the follow-up! You were dead on with the pirating issue. I'm glad you mentioned the authority of the church... that's the point. The "pirates" get out from under God's umbrella and create havoc. God has authority structures in place for a reason!

You obviously have a heart to reach the unchurched and to plant churches. No one can reasonably question that! Your concern is correct... it just needs to be done the right way.

[Holly]

Thanks Ed for the clarification. I have been reading all of the comments and there were some I was concerned about since I don't know you personally. While reading all the messages it struck me as funny that just because you may have said some things (like I don't want to hear from you if you haven't lived this) that may have offended some people, you are still human. I did kind of wonder why you made that comment but the bottom line is that this isn't about your or me it is about finding the lost. We are new to FC but I have to tell you that we are loving what you all are doing. Keep up the great work. God bless you.

[Scott Fillmer]

I have followed the firestorm (for lack of a better term) with interest. You had to have hit on something since it blew up the way it did, wonder why that is?

Maybe we all need to focus our what scripture has in mind for the church, to reach out to the lost.

I am glad you kept at it and didn't back down and even came back and answered and clarified, it makes for a healthy discussion in the end.

[AdamF]

Ed, thanks man. You're striking a chord because it's true. I think there is a lot of pride and insecurity in pirating that we don't want to admit to having.

[Dale Schaeffer]

Thanks for clarifying...I thought the first post was freakin' amazing!

Recently I've seen both types of new churches formed.

The first a disgruntled youth pastor who took a strong young core from the church he served at...leaving a trail of conflict, deceit, and frustration.

The second a former staff member who sensed a call to plant, was allowed to share his vision, and then took a core to plant the new work in a nearby town.

The question I'm asking is how do you identify the guy in #1 before it's too late?

[Blane Young]

Thank you Ed, for responding to many comments and directly answer questions regarding the "pirate video". There were several things that were clarified in this post, so thank you for explaining the workings behind your video blog.