Church Pirates

This is something I've wanted to blog about for a while. I also wanted the staff at Fellowship to hear it. So I filmed this in front of them...I can't wait to hear your responses!

Comments

[Lew]

Does it really matter? I mean, don't we all belong to the same church anyway? Don't we all belong to the one and only Body of Christ?Its like working at Wal-mart at one end of town and leaving to work at the Wal-mart on the other end of town.

[Rob]

Amazing...unbelievably accurate...need to write a book on it.

[Karen graves]

I have been a Christain for 30 years and have Pastored with my husband for 12. We have never had a large church, however we have reached out to the lost with evangelistic events that far surpassed our congregation in numbers and salvations. Over the years I have been floored at the amount of church members from other churches who invite our members to their churches. I have litrally never invited one person who was plugged into a church to any church I have ever attended. Somehow I knew in my spirit it was dishonest. Several years ago, my husband and I had the opportunity to listen to Larry Kreider, the Director of Dove Christian Fellowship International, a network of Home Churches, speak. He gave an analogy of Ministry that has stuck with my husband and me and helped guide us in our own Ministry. As we apply the principles that he spoke of, we see very few Pastors exercise the same disciplines in their own Ministries. Rather than use an analogy that applied to the Business World, like Jesus, he spoke of farm life. He explained how each farmer has his own land which he defines by building a fence around it's perimeter. Inside that fence are his home, his equipment, his crops and his livestock. Next to this farmer's land is his neighbor. He too has defined his land by building a strong fense around his land, his field. Each day both farmers go out and work their fields. Never would one of these farmers do the unthinkable by plowing in their own field and then jumping the fence to begin plowing in his neighbor's field. Each farmer plows only in his own field. Likewise, the Lord gives each of us our own fields to plow in. We need to respect each other by plowing in our own fields rather than plowing in the field that God has given our neighbor. There are certain people that God has brought to our field to grow and mature. It would be wrong for someone to try to plow in our field and vise versa. This is only a hard concept for those who don't want to be honest. If we could truely love one another we would not step on each other's toes. We would respect each other and only plow in our own field. Karen

[Ben]

Pastor Ed,

I agree with what you said in your blog. I am someone who has gone out to start a new church and feel as though I am on the other end of the spectrum. I feel like I have done the right thing by my former pastors, leaders and God but still at times get accused of being one of those pirates.

I was on staff at a church in the city I am currently starting the church in. I was longing to plant a church about 30 minutes from where I was on staff. It was obvious through many conversations with the leaders that it would not work at that time. My pastor released me to go and explore other opportunities and a couple months later God led us to take another staff positon at another church out of state. We were blessed to go by our current pastor and warmly recieved by our new pastor and church.

When meeting with my new pastor he said, "I know church planting is in your heart so I am only asking you to give me three years and help get this ministry up off the ground. In three years I will send you wherever you want to go even back to the city you came from to start your church. I will send you with money and people if they want to go".

This year, actually 7 days after your blog was posted we were sent out to go back to the city we came from to start the church God had put in our hearts. We were sent with money, and anyone who wanted to leave. So on June 12th we moved with a handfull of people and a huge financial blessing from our church. We were also left with a challenge of finding our own covering and branching out to create our own contacts.

Even though the people sent with us were blessed to come and even though no one from the church we used to work at in this city are a part of our church plant we are often accused of being "church pirates". This leads me to believe that even though people can be called by God to do something totally Godly and even handle it the best way possible, innevitably the person leaving/getting sent etc. gets accused of "church pirating". Even David hidding in a cave in fear for his life and doing right by God and his leaders was accused of this.

My question to you is this, is there a way when transition comes to truly escape these emotions that when someone leaves/sent its a negative or they are pirates. Is there a balance and now as a lead pastor how do I help people reach the dream that God has called them to even if it means planting a church in the same city I am in.

[Paul Carter]

Watching this video brought back a whole lot of memories; I have been in the pastoral ministry for 30 years and have never felt hurt like the hurt I received from a staff member I brought on our staff. He did exactly what you were talking about ... gained my trust, was there for me (as I was for him) day and night, and he was my "Aaron" ... until he saw fit to pull 45-55 key people away from the church and he started his own. He couldn't have done it on his own; I brought him on staff when he couldn't find another church.

I don't know what precipitated this little talk you had with your staff but I can imagine. Keep preaching Jesus and telling it like it is.

[dave stewart]

hi...i found your blog on pirates of the church...verry interesting this happened to our church in wales....its a hillsong network churck (kings church) one of the one of the band leaders went to another church and took a lot of the members with him it really upset our church and because of this we lost a lot of our followers...and just like you said in your serman...he said that it was gods calling...well i am verry sceptical about this but i dont want to judge what his intentions were at the time...i still pray for him some 6 month on....thanks your serman really touched me....david..

[Alberto Rodriguez]

Paster Ed Young,

My mother is a Pastor and I grew up in her church and you hit the nail on the head. This situation happend in the church that my mother is pastoring and it hurts and has longer lasting efects not only on the paster but on the entire church community. I commend you for this messege cuz i now and have felt that pain of living thrue this (As you know Pastor children get involved in the church and put theyre harts in it as well). God Bless you for all that you are doing.

[Georgia Chacona]

Ed, you were exactly on target. When a senior pastor hires individuals to his staff, or individuals are placed in positions of service, it is for the edifying of the church. There is no "tenure," or authority given to these individuals that supports church pirating for any reason. The Bible is very clear that Christ is the Shepherd and the pastor is the undersheperd. God has set the pastor up as the leader of the church. It is the pastor who recieves the vision of the church from God. It is the pastor that the Lord leads when making critical decisions concerning the ministry of the church. A lack of trust in the pastor is a lack of trust in God's ability to rule His own house.

You can not take actions that include direct violations of the Word of God (on-going anger, stealth, lies, gossip, exaggerations, deceptions, the sowing of discord among the brethren, unforgiveness, the bearing of grudges, verbal assasinations, unkindness, the sanctioning of any individual to break financial and ministry covenants made before God, and the list goes on and on) and then claim the seal of God's leadership.

Did God ever sanction dessention in the church for any reason? When a church is split, both groups lose credibilty in the world. Common sense and a little Bible study would tell you that severing the body of Christ is not in the best interest of redeeming the lost, which is the mission of the Church.

[DH]

I have been through similar situations in ministry but have seen it from many different perspectives. I've seen the Diotrophes who want to have the "preeminence" and start a new ministry simply by convincing people that they will be better fed with them at a new ministry. I've also seen pastors who want to advance the vision, by letting go of committed staff who have been instrumental in establishing the ministry because of "not fitting into the new vision". Many of these men have been called by God to help you build the ministry and have labored faithfully. Served the body consistently and developed relationship based upon faithful service. When shown the door, their calling hasn't been voided by God, but been displaced by the pastor. They have still been called to preach the Word, Make Disciples and reach the lost. Many times new ministries emerge out of these situations because of the pastor's decision, only to have them called pirates when some choose to leave, when the pastor made the decision to ask them to leave the fellowship. It's a careful balance. Each situation is different so blanket statements really don't apply. One pirate could actually be a castoff who continued to obey the call of God in his life somewhere else. We don't own the sheep. We just lead, and feed the sheep. They belong to God. Pastors need to be really prayerful when they make life-changing decisions in the lives of faithful staff members.

[Josh Parrish]

As a pastor of a new church I must say that I agree whole heartedly with this! We are launching in September and my biggest struggle has been how to prevent people that are angry or looking for the flavor of the month from hopping over to our church. We have located ourselves a long way away from the church I I left and waited a full year to remove ourselves from any emotional attachment or "loyalty" from members of our former church. My greatest conviction has been to reach unchurched, lost people in an area that void of churches. We were blessed that our church we left gave us their blessing and support through this process. I have been able to maintain a great friendship with my former pastor.
That said, nothing frustrates me more than the people that feel the need to do church "better" and take folks from their church with them. I have experienced this personally and nothing rips a church apart like this act of selfishness. God is not about us choosing sides and deciding which staff member we are more loyal to! Thank you so much for posting your insight on this issue.

[Jeff Ricciardi]

I agree with the thesis of the video as our church has just had this happen. One of the senior leaders was "called" to plant a new church on the other side of Houston. This individual proceeded to extract other staff members away from our church to support his own cause.

My wife an I were caught up in this early in our christian walk. We were part of the group that left the church with the assistant pastor to start another church a few miles away. (we repented to the pastor shortly after) What I can say from that experience is God does not bless that kind of behavior. In most of the cases I have seen regarding church trans-planting, the Glory of God does not manifest in the transplanted group because it was done within a spirit of rebellion. Ichabod is the biblical term.

Bottom line, as with most things in life, the activity is all about control. Who will be in charge, make the decisions, control the money, and bring THEIR vision to pass. If you want to "plant" a church, then "grow" the leaders that God will send you. In God's economy, these people ultimately reap what they have sown.

[Sandy]

I live in a small town where we do not have a contemporary worship service offered. A group of us have been praying for two years that God will raise up a leader for this contemporary service. I am sure some people will leave their traditional services and join the contemporary service because that is the desire of so many people and right now they do not have that option. We are not praying to "split" a church or to harm a church in any way. We just realize we need a creative worship service to reach so many of the young couples and the lost in our community. I sincerely hope that none of the local pastors feel we are trying to "pirate".

[T. Michael Cart]

This is, hands down, one of the most emotionally charged issues facing the church today. One can hardly begin to speak of it without all kinds of galvanizing imagery coming to mind: church splits, slander, subterfuge, obfuscation, authority issues and abuse. Indeed, tempers flare and vitriol is expelled equally from different sides of the fence. It is ugly.

I, myself, have been witness to this exact dynamic. The "pirate" in question was a rather gifted preacher who spent his entire life in that particular church since he was a small boy, being raised up by the senior leadership. At some point, conflict caused him to leave and take a sizeable portion of the congregation with him. Very shortly thereafter, a brand new shiny church sprung up not all that far away. The wound inflicted on the parent congregation was deep and wide, persisting still--between the families involved.

Now, to be fair, there are always details in every situation that not everyone is aware of. In addition, there have been a great many pastors (too many to mention, actually) that have misused their "authority" to keep capable, annointed people in abusive mentoring relationships that never bear fruit or never allow the younger leader to strike out as God has called. Yes, God does call people to leave churches. In fact, I think that the great commission sort of prefaces that fact. However, I don't believe that God would call someone to act in secret, for months, sometimes years; gathering support in the shadows and creating dissent among the congregation. This is wrong...simply wrong. If you feel that you have been called to start a church, well then why not involve the senior pastor? If he is legit, then he will recognize God's calling on your life and not only let you go, but will probably help you get there. Yes, pastors can fail...sometimes miserably. We are all made of flesh. But, the abusive or controlling pastor will never be brought to correction if you operate in secret. Give him a chance to speak. Give him the opportunity to offer advice. Give him the courtesy of having an opinion. You don't have to comply; he doesn't own you. But, by being forthcoming, you display yourself as being one approved and one who values integrity and the lives of those who stand to be affected. And although you don't need it per se, it is much better to be sent somewhere with a blessing than to leave somewhere suddenly, causing pain and division.

Yes, sometimes we have to make hard decisions that go against what others feel is correct. We must obey God first, after all. Yet, we need to be sure it is God and not our own flesh that is driving us to new places.

Want to start a church? Great. I can think of tons of places that could use clean water and basic immunizations that need pastors and Christians willing to make sacrificial choices in the name of the King.

As far as spiritual abuse is concerned, it is a very real and pervasive problem today. But we must confront the pastors and people in leadership who engage in it, directly. Even if they tell us to leave or that we are apostate, we at least know we tried to make it right...in the right way. God knows the truth. Hiding in the shadows and stirring the pot will always end badly.

-T. Michael Cart

[myra brandenburg]

I know 5 churches in my home town that are the product of church piracy. Make me grieve to see how divisive people could become just so their name could be in lights. I wonder how much more effective those 5 guys would have been in reaching a lost community if they had remained unified and with one purpose like the Acts 2 church. Of course, those 5 are now replicating the problem in the 2nd generation of leadership. Very disappointing. Thank you for opening the discussion.

[Janette]

Hi Ed,
Im from Sydney Australia and I listen to your podcasts and visit your websites when i can..i came across this video and i dunno why i chose this video over your several other ones but there were many things you pointed out that i do agree on and really wanted to share with a pastor with open opinions and trust.

my church has grown and God really uses our church and being in the suburbs, God started to work towards the city and four years ago planted a church in the city for students from overseas, Korea. This congregation started from 10 people to 300 and its amazing to see Gods grace and His love for His people. I might add, I do had a slight problem and I see where you were getting at with Pastors not being able to trust because of betrayal. I think my Pastor has been betrayed by so many of our church members therefore he rather choses to do most things by himself.

The Church 'pirates' you call them, I had seen them and they have left the church and may be doing it to another church they are attending. God knows what they are doing and I guess your message really allowed me to open my eyes more to pray for those people. Thanks Heaps and may God Bless You!!

[Matthew]

Ed,
I loved the blog, we planted a church in our community just about a year ago. I grew up here and came back here not totally sure why. We had left a growing church to come to a church that was living in the past. With the idea that we could help facilitate positive inertia. Unfortunately it became clear that I was not in a position where that could happen. As a staff member I had to realize where and when I could have input as a leader. What was happening though was that my wife and I continued to see a need within our community that was going unmet. There is obvious oppresion occurring here so we sat down with Sr Leadership and shared our hearts. They in turn shared that they saw the same needs but did not believe that the church could impact the way we are talking about. So we began to pursue the planting of our church. In the process the Sr leadership changes their minds but we had already set sail. I will not say that no famililes came with us becasue there were around 5 to 8 total. On our 1st Sunday we had 32 people. Over the past year we haev seen 30+ people come to Christ for the very 1st time. Now some would say we pirated and I could see how they might say that. But my question is this if we as Pastors whether staff or Senior see that the church is not living out our Biblical mandates to build disciples. Isn't it our duty to step up and stand in the gap on behalf of the people that desperately need to experience the love of the Savior not just hear about it.
Thank you so much for your ministry to and for Pastors. The subject is one that needs to be tackled. I just don't want to throw everyone who might have left a church and started another one in the same community under the bus.

Matthesw

[Debbie B.]

What a powerful video! For seven years my husband has been the pastor of a church plant. It is crazy! Just when you think you have seen it all... BOOM, another "I can't believe it surprise" comes along. Really, I think the biggest... hardest moment to work through was when we helped a church and a pastor we had known for years by letting them meet in our space (because they were a church plant in need of a temporary place)and that pastor helped himself to our members. You tell yourself when 'lay folk' pull a crazy stunt like trying to split the church that they must NOT have a strong walk because they are being so divisive. But what excuse can you offer when a pastor is leading the bleeding of your congregation in the name of 'Growing the Kingdom?' Just a few quick thoughts for the walking wounded of such a harsh pirate attack. First, We have to pray (and I am not talking 'SMITE HIM') for the pirate. The Bible tells us to pray for our enemy. I read it seven times in God's word and there is no out clause. Good thing too because it takes all that hurt and puts it in the hands of the only one who can truly change it around... our Lord God. Also, I read a great book written from a pastor's wife called WINDOWS IN A GLASS HOUSE. She is so funny. She talks about walking in the supermarket and having to smile and be nice to the lady who has left her church. She reminds herself (and her readers) that we are the care takers of God's Sheep for the time that they are with us, and God is the shepherd who will lead them for all time. So what... why would a man who claims to be a pastor do such an awful thing to a fellow pastor? I want to write, because he is a jerk (ha-ha), but I think I might know the answer (I bet you do too). The answer is because he is a sinner who made a really bad choice. The lack of honor a pirate shows to his fellow pastor is disheartening. What do you think that lack of honor does? It has the potential to ooze into every choice that pastor makes. When the Bible says, 'seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and then all these things will be added unto you,' it doesn't get more clearer than that. Take a moment this week to study up on what God says about honor. Pray for the pirate because one thing I am sure of above all else is that God is bigger than any pirate. Pray, and focus on God, and yet again learn a hard lesson and be BETTER and not bitter because of the trial.

[Jereme]

Ed - I couldn't agree with you more! This is certainly an epidemic amongst churches that needs a voice, like the Apostle Paul, to speak to corrupt & divisive actions of so called "pastors" who 'in the name of God' pirate churches to fulfill their insatiable fleshly desires to stardom. We (the church) have so strayed from true accountability as it was instituted by the apostles in Acts to the place where we pull the "trump card" of God's name to get what we want. It's just a sad thing! If we could realize our enemy is not each other, but the devil, we could actually accomplish great things for God together. Many are called, but few are chosen! Leaders don't need to abandon themselves to being church pirates when in fact God didn't choose them in the first place to be the senior leader. They need to face reality and understand what their place in the kingdom of God is...to be the best number 2 or 3 servant to the person God has chosen to be the head leader. Be okay with that & thrive in that position. The result, God's church will grow & His kingdom will expand. Thanks for bringing this topic to the surface. I hope your voice gets heard in the right way! God Bless!

[Heather]

Great blog. Timely. I have read most of the blogs and it is easy to see those who have truly been victims of "church pirating" and those who have "pirated". There is no "fine line" between pirating and church planting. Church planting starts from the "head" and the church leadership is in agreement and it follows the vision of that church. When someone in church leadership becomes sinful or unethical in thier practices,that is one thing. When you don't agree with the direction that senior pastor feels God is leading them and you begin to "secretly" talk with others in the church to pull people to your side, you are just being divisive. Matthew 18:15-20 clearly lays out the best way to deal with conflict in the church. Most people who "pirate" never go to the senior pastor to try to get answers, they usually try to get others on thier side, first. Then, they leave and try to pull others to them just to justify their leaving.

I have heard the hurt in some of the blogs from those who have experienced this. God doesn't do that! I and my family have also experienced this hurt in the last year. My father is my senior pastor and I have served as a staff pastor under him for the past 18 years. My dad is a great man of God and one of such geniune character and integrity. But, more than that, God called him for a great work in our community and because of that, we have had spiritual battle after spiritual battle to see the lost won to Christ. Last year was the hardest year we ever had and the battle came from within.

I, nor anyone else who has expressed hurt over going through this situation personally can convey the depth of hurt and rejection that occurs when this happens. Then, when you have been totally open and honest with your congregation and because of talk that goes on outside of the church between those involved in the splitting, you are continually questioned, it is almost unbearable. The main problem is that those who seem confused, never take the time to come and talk with the senior pastor and staff that are still there serving them. Since I have had it happen to me and my family and I know that our hearts are so pure toward the call of God and what He wants from our church, I know that this is a divisive work of the enemy and totally unfruitful to the Kingdom of God. Maybe if lay people who are confused would come to the staff pastors, as the Word says, their confusion would be alleviated and peace could come to them.

To be honest, it has really helped the church in regard to the spirit in worship and ministry and in relationship among the staff. We are stronger than ever in that area and we are seeing souls saved (and that is what is all about). However, the hurt that our families have faced because we loved them like family and were so shocked at the manner in which they left, was really devastating. That has started to heal and we are moving forward.

I have heard others post that their churches have only benefitted by these people leaving, as well. To be honest, I would rather they stay where they are and let us have the peace that we have gained. However, the thing that is of great concern, and should be to everyone, is those who see these "pirates" as victims and follow them to their demise. These are sheep, gone astray. Many times, when the "honeymoon" is over,they realize that they made a mistake to follow that person and they are afraid to come back, because of the manner they left. We have taken the position to love them and be kind to them when we see them in public so they know that we have forgiven them and they can always come back, if they need to. I have also noticed that some sheep just stop going to church because they see this kind of conflict and they don't want to have to deal with it and it is easier for them to just leave church, period. This is of great concern and one that our staff prays regularly about.

This subject goes really deep and I'm sorry for such a long blog. However, I believe this is really an epedimic in the church to keep us unfocused on winning souls and our enemy (Satan-not each other) is standing back laughing at us that we are falling for his plan.

Praying for unity in the Body!

[Paul]

As I read through the comments. I recognized one of the post where the writer describe his church had been pirated a few months ago and was shocked and dismayed. I live in the same community and I seem to recall that his church started the same way 5 years ago. They pirated from the local big church in the community they set up in. Although I bet they do not look at it that because like all pirates they say they are going to do "something different" or "new, exciting" Our community had way too many churches then and way, way too many now. If they would all set aside their egos and get along, combine resources, buildings, etc. maybe then they could actually reach our community. Rather than shifting $$, and "church goers" from one church to another.

[Jae Yoo]

I think this is issue of obedience more than anything. If God placed Pastor Ed to be your leader, staff has to be obedient under his authority. If that staff is planting church without Ed knowing, I dont think that God's way. God is God of order! If God really called you to plant a church, DO IT GOD'S WAY! Ask your leader-Ed for blessings!

[Allen]

While I agree that those who attend a church with the motive of stealing sheep are not acting within God's will, the church split is often a symptom of misapplication of Biblical truth. Paul taught that ministers of spiritual things can expect to receive their living by it. Churches where "every member is a minister" are no exception. Effective volunteer management includes limiting a lay leader’s contribution to a level where the pay they are earning, but not getting is inconsequential. This helps prevent the economic necessity to recoup those losses through reorganization of their sheep. In a mega-church like ours the pastors are often at the bottom. The guy on the stage can only pastor those in whose lives he can individually invest.

[Jon Leach]

I listen to what you had to say and having been thru such an experience where it wasn't so much the man who left, but the denomenation who saw that my assistant Pastor was and is an awsome man, went about drafting him in the name of church planting, financed a church plant with in the same city (less than 5 miles away) as I am in. There's not enough room here to explain everything. But because of this we are on the verge of closing our doors with in the 1 1/2 years his church been open. We went from 85 average and growing and looking to find a bigger building (because of the 70% rule) to 18 last sunday because we can't..lack of a better word "compete" with the financial backing he recieved. Loyalty even with the denomenation is so terribly lacking. If you don't fit their view of what a perfect pastor is this year, then you are left out to die. We are trying to relaunch and reach a comunity that needs Christ, please pray for us. As far as my Assistant Pastor who planted his own church. Who got his start with me from when he was only an Youth Leader to Decon to Assistant Pastor and now a Pastor of his own church, pray for him as I do , he is a great man and I am as Paul was of Timothy very proud of what he has accomplished in the name of the Lord. He has gone from 0 to I believe now close to 650, close to 100+ conversions in an year an half. My hurt comes from what the denomenation did and not form him as he had to take his direction from them at the time. So yes I understand way to well about Church Pirates. May God Bless you in ways beyound your wildest thoughts as you again have ministered and fed me.

In Christ,
Jon

[Billy Ray Thomas]

Mr. Young I listened to your sermon on church pirates last week and it really stirred my emotions. I desired to comment immiedietly, however I could not find the leading of our Lord to comment. Mainly b/c I would have been moving out of my desires not his. But as I spent time with him this morning I believe he has given an answer to this dillema of yours. It is in Matthew 10:16-Behold I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. (NKJV) I believe he is putting more of an emphasis on the begining of this scripture as he speaks to his apostles. My desire is that this may be of benefit to you. I love you and pray the grace and peace of the Lord over your Life.

[a first lady]

My persepctive as the wife of a sr pastor...
the pain and damage caused by pirates has many layers. To name a few:
The pain in the church body as family members leave. When you love each other as family, it feels like a divorce as some turn and walk away.
The damage to my children cannot be measured. They don't understand how one who was in the inner circle of trusted brothers and sisters can add insult to injury by expecting open arms from them. My children have asked "How can he do what he's done and expect me to treat him as though nothing has changed?"
My own pain. Close friends for me are few-when one close to me not only leaves but asks me to be happy for her as she goes.
My husband's pain as lies are beleived and go unchallenged.
My advice- dont allow Satan to win by using precious energy on pirates. Focus on God's mission and don't ease up on following His call.